User talk:Schwern
Hi, welcome to Mass Effect Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Talk:Project Firewalker: Survey Sites Located page. Be sure to check out our Style Guide and Community Guidelines to help you get started, and please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Commdor (Talk) 22:14, October 6, 2011 Removing Comments Left By Other Users Note that removing comments left by other users is an extremely bannable offense. You are not me, and therefore you have no right to remove comments left by me on a talk page. Comments are the property of the user that left them and no one else has the right to modify them. Do not do this again. Lancer1289 23:30, October 7, 2011 (UTC) : You said my comment was inappropriate for the talk page. You're right, it's more a forum thing, so I removed it. I also removed your reply because otherwise it would just be clutter and busy work for you to remove it. While I very much understand that user's replies should not be messed with, I think you'll agree that yours had done its job and was otherwise without content. I exercised some editorial control, and the wiki motto "be bold", to keep the talk page uncluttered and undo my mistake. One can see this was not intended to be malicious. If you want to discuss ways this can be resolved better, or point me at a guide for doing so, that's ok. I'm new in this particular wiki. But don't treat me like a vandal and threaten me with banning over a reasonable edit which corrected the mistake you pointed out. Schwern 21:55, October 8, 2011 (UTC) ::Except that we have rules regarding comments of users, which are linked above in the Community Guidelines. ::*"Editing other users' comments is not acceptable" ::*"Do not edit another user’s comments or their Talk page" ::It is stated twice in the CG that no one, under any circumstances, is allowed to edit, which includes removing the comments of another user from an article talk page. This is a very bannable offense and something that is taken very seriously here. The only way comments can be removed from article talk pages is if the person who left the comment, removes it. User talk pages are another story. If you wanted, you could remove my comments from this page, as it is your talk page, and I couldn't do anything about it. However, if you modified my comment then that would be against the CG even though it is your talk page. Removing, OK, editing, not. This is a policy that is quite clearly outlined in the CG, and it is even listed in the Banning section as grounds for banning: ::*"Editing another user’s comments" ::Since you were unfamiliar with the policy, no action will be taken, hence the warning about the policy. This is again, something that is taken very seriously here, and we have banned people for removing comments from talk pages before, and I have little doubt that it will happen again. :Be bold only goes so far as if you aren't familiar with the policies of a wiki, or the rules there, then before making an edit, familiarize yourself with them. Policies on one wiki don't always carry over from one wiki to another and each wiki is free to do what they want with their policies. What's ok on one wiki, may not be ok on another. If you have any questions, then ask as that is what admins are here for. And if you do get a warning about violating a site policy, then don't go off the deep end and say that you are being treated any differently or like a vandal. Anyone who does this gets the exact same warning about this policy. You are not being treated any differently in this instance than anyone else who violated this policy. Lancer1289 00:49, October 9, 2011 (UTC) ::I think you've taken that policy too literally and are ignoring the circumstances. It does not say "under any circumstances" are comments not allowed to be removed. Taken literally, you are in violation of "do not edit another user’s comments or their Talk page" by "editing" my talk page. Yes, it's a ridiculous interpretation because "editing" has several different meanings within that document. To take it literally is absurd. The guidelines are guidelines, not strict rules. They are a means to an end, not an end themselves. ::Removing an irrelevant thread from a talk page, one that I started, is a very different beast from editing someone else's comments. No words were put into your mouth. No discussion or opinion was squashed. No disrespect to you was done or intended. I was not "editing another user’s comments to ridicule them, shut them up or make them agree". ::As you said, these aren't forums. The highest responsibility is to improve the article, not preserve user comments. The talk page exists to help the article improve. My comment was off-topic and in violation of the talk page guidelines, so I removed it. Without my comment, your comment was now off-topic and in violation of the talk page guidelines, so I removed it. Given the conflict of guidelines, I chose what made the wiki better. ::Put another way... would the talk page have been improved by leaving the off-topic thread in place? Would the talk page have been improved by my deleting just my comment and leaving yours in place? In your opinion, what was my correct course of action to correct my mistake of putting an off-topic edit on the talk page once you'd commented on it? What would make the wiki better? Schwern 01:48, October 9, 2011 (UTC) :::Except you did violate the policy and this isn't taking it literally, or absurdly for that matter. It is how site policy has been enforced since before I joined this wiki and before I was made an admin. So this isn't my "ridiculous interpretation" of site policy, but rather site policy and it is clear. You cannot edit, which includes, modifying, removing, or altering, the comment of another user under any circumstances. You are removing a comment, therefore you are editing it. Deleting/removing is still making an edit to that comment as you are making it disapper, and therefore still violates the Guidelines. Removing is still editing and there really isn't a way of getting around that if you think about it. :::If the guidelines aren't strict rules, then there are things that we have a problem with. There are very strict rules within that page and they are also enforced to the letter. For example, we have a rule about no videos being uploaded to the site, and that is noted in the Guidelines. There is an issue if that isn't strictly enforced as we immediately delete any video that is uploaded on sight. Guidelines can be either strict rules or general guidelines, and everything in-between. There are strict rules there, and there are more general guidelines, and each is enforced. :::As to what I would have done, well I'll repeat what has been done several times. They note that it is irrelevant and incorrect, and ask the section to be deleted. To which I reply that I can't remove their comments because of site policy, but if they remove their own comments, then I would remove mine. If you had just removed your comment, then I would have removed mine when I noticed it. Even then, we generally leave talk pages as they are and just archive them when the time is right. However, if you just remove your comment, then I will remove mine as I cannot remove yours, and you can't remove mine. :::I also again state that just because something is OK on one wiki, doesn't instantly mean that it will be OK on another wiki. Always look at the policies before hand, and again, if you get a message/warning about you violating a site policy, then note how that policy is enforced on the wiki and learn from it. Lancer1289 02:08, October 9, 2011 (UTC) ::::Look, I came onto this wiki to learn about Mass Effect, not rules lawyer. Sucks all the fun out of it. If the rules are so strict then you're in violation by "editing" my talk page, but there's no fun in playing that game. If you'd come on sympathetically, acknowledging that what I did might seem correct and helpful but is in violation of policy and guiding me through the preferred (and more convoluted) way, then we wouldn't be having this argument. Instead I felt threatened with banning for making an innocent change. A wiki lives on the goodwill of its volunteers, but if enforcing rules to the letter is important to you, have fun. I'm not. Schwern 02:51, October 9, 2011 (UTC) :::::I would encourage you not to leave. Of course, this wiki thrives on good editors, and if you came here to learn and help out, you are more than welcome by everyone here. You happened to hit upon one of few very bannable offenses at this wiki. Editing another user's comments for any reason in any section of the wiki, other than your own talk page, is strictly prohibited and is considered an infraction on the same tier as vandalism. Lancer's warning is automatic protocol in this situation, but that doesn't mean he considered you a bad editor or even a problem. I'm sure he just wanted to make sure the rule was clear while being consistent with site policy. This was mostly just a misunderstanding, so stick around for awhile. There are rules here, but in general, it's actually very easy to follow them as they are mostly intuitive. At any rate you seem eager and articulate,so there likely won't be any more problems since you know the rules now.--Captainhu 03:29, October 9, 2011 (UTC)